Join Jenni as she talks to communications strategist, Eva Maclaine, about managing reputation and the risks involved. In a world where technology and social media can highlight anything, whether it’s true or not, maintaining a good reputation is high on leaders’ priorities. They discuss how working with integrity and mindfulness is key when navigating your way through managing your reputation.
Eva joined the collective team in 2022 as we found clients needed a little advice on reputation management and the role of employees. Eva’s expertise here means she is perfectly positioned to help leadership teams and communication teams consider the ethical and reputational impact of decisions.
Things that will help you go from chaos to calm:
Eva blog – Crises, chaos and calm – Maintaining untarnished reputations
Bell Pottinger case study | PRCA
Government shuns CBI lobby giant after rape claim – BBC News
Get in touch with Eva through LinkedIn
You can continue the conversation with Jenni on Twitter and LinkedIn
Transcript for this podcast
Welcome to this episode of Redefining Comms with me, Jenni Field. Today, I’m going to be joined by Eva McLean, who is our Communication and Reputation and Change Management Specialist. Now, Eva has her own consultancy and works as part of the collective team, and she’s an absolute expert in all things reputation and ethics. She’s glaring at me slightly now as I’m saying this. I’ve known Eva for a long time through our work with the Chartered Institute of Public Relations, and she’s always been someone that I’ve gone to for advice on ethics and reputation. She’s also so fabulous that she speaks five languages: French, Russian, Polish, Italian and English.
So, I’m absolutely in the company of greatness today. Thank you for joining me, Eva. So, we’re talking reputation and chaos today. And so in your experience, and there’s probably so many examples I feel we could talk about already today.
Where does chaos come from for organisations when it comes to reputation?
Well, first of all, Jenni, thanks ever so much for inviting me. It’s a real pleasure to be here. So, thank you for that. You know, I actually like all good sort of PR people looked up what reputation management meant in lots of different circumstances. So, there’s some fairly normal things like building relationships with stakeholders. We understand all of that. But Wikipedia did shock me a bit because there they say it’s about influencing, controlling, enhancing or concealing of an individual group’s reputation, which to me was really quite shocking. I don’t think we do any of that actually, mainly because reputation does not belong to us or the company.
It belongs to the people who perceive you. And that’s what it’s all about. So, your question was what happens, wasn’t it? Yeah. So, I think that’s fascinating about Wikipedia, because it’s not about concealing is it at all?
No, of course not.
Where does the chaos come from?
Right. In organisations? If there is something, looking at reputation, you know, what’s the chaos that comes around that?
So, the chaos is always, it’s, as somebody once said in Parliament, it’s events, dear boy, events. And they can be internal, they can be external, they can be caused by poor actions or crises, all sorts of things. So, shall I give you some examples? I mean, one of the examples I thought of was mergers and acquisitions, because when handled well, they’re really brilliant. And they’re very positive experiences for the companies involved.
But if handled badly, they can be dynamite, they can be really terrible. And I mean, I remember working with a company who was taken over 12 years before I actually met them. And they were still talking about the merger, supposed merger, they felt they’d been
Taken over, you know. So, that’s really important, because obviously, employees, if they’re unhappy, and you know better than anybody about that, if they’re unhappy, they’ll start grumbling, and then they grumble outside, externally, and then, you know, your reputation gets damaged very, very easily. So, I think that’s one area which, when handled badly, is, you know, really difficult.
Another one is, I think it’s interesting that societal values change a lot, you know. So, what’s acceptable now, wasn’t acceptable before, and vice versa. Well, you know, we did all sorts of things when I started out in PR, which are completely unacceptable now.
I mean, I well remember long lunches and long afternoons. In fact, you know, which now, just nobody would do them, nobody would do them at all. So those are difficult. And I think it’s interesting that friends of mine are telling me that a lot of people simply don’t want to work on what are called dubious accounts.
So, you know, large petrochemical companies, I think they’re very difficult to recruit for. And kids will simply not work for those companies. So, that’s where you have to think about what you do.
How do you manage your reputation, if people aren’t willing to help you?
And how do you know, from a reputation perspective, I’m a bit of the belief that every everybody deserves representation in sort of a legal way. So, from a PR perspective, and communication perspective, and organisational perspective, how do you manage your reputation, if people aren’t willing to help you?
Well, it’s nobody’s willing to help you. That’s really difficult. I do think talking is very important. And certainly, there are maybe some things. I mean, I have my own ethical values, and some things I wouldn’t want to handle, and I would simply not want to do that. But equally, if there’s a chance where you can persuade people to improve their actions, then I think there’s a case for working with them.
And I suppose it does come down to your own individual values. It does, absolutely.
And I mean, some companies will say, “We don’t mind if you don’t want to work on this account, say so that you’re not forced to work on it.”
And that’s fair enough. It’s a sensible way of going forward, I think.
Okay. And then you’ve got a few other examples, I think, of reputation challenges.
Absolutely. So, we were talking about events, but there are also cover-ups. And you know, one of the interesting examples in recent years was the VW emissions scandal, where they actually had an impeccable reputation before that. Everybody thought VW was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it was exposed for cheating emission tests in order just to improve results. I mean, they were just lying. And that was really, well, more than irresponsible.
I don’t know how much you know about that scandal as to whether there’s anything that led to that reputation damage. So, was it sort of decisions made? Because I often think, I don’t know enough about this to sort of comment on it. But do we know where that sort of scandal and challenges around reputation management came from?
It is obviously wanting to appear better than you actually are. And having a better reputation than you actually should have is as dangerous as having a bad one, actually. Because, you know, it’s a bit like going on a blind date, thinking he’s absolutely wonderful, and you turn up and actually it’s not at all what he’s going to be. Basically catfishing of organisations. Exactly. So, really, to have a, you know, to cover up a reputation and make it seem better than it actually is, is a really unwise way forward, definitely.
Do you think that’s got harder as time’s gone on and technology’s changed?
Because surely years ago, it was easier to create some kind of false reputation. Whereas now with social media, the way people communicate, all those things mean that you’re going to be found out a lot quicker, I suppose, than you were, you know, 30, 40 years ago.
Well, that actually is at the crux of what I think is that you can’t afford to be found out. Integrity in what you do is essential if you’re going to run a successful organisation. And yes, I do think it’s much easier now to fall foul of things. Because as you say, I mean, with social media, you know, I think it was Mark Twain who said, a lie can spread around the world in an instant, whereas truth is still putting its boots on. So, you know, that it really, it’s instantaneous at the moment and it’s global.
It just doesn’t know any boundaries. And of course, I think with AI now, that can lead to the ultimate chaos. It really is a big threat to us.
Well, expand on that in terms of AI and reputation and chaos.
Well, I think the whole thing about not really knowing whether something is true or not, you can be presented, I don’t know if you saw the picture of the Pope in his puffer jacket. I think I did see that, yeah. Deep fake. And, you know, people accepted it. They thought it was real. And who now will judge what is real and what isn’t real? Who’s going to legislate on it? You know, I know the EU is looking at legislation around AI. We’ve got a white paper out on it.
But it’s incredibly difficult and there are no boundaries. So, you know, what we might clamp down on might be exposed somewhere else. And it is really, I do feel that the only solution is to act with integrity or probably be sick and tired of me.
Saying so. But I do think that’s the answer. Yeah, I think it’s got to be, hasn’t it? Because there’s no other way to do it. But I was reading recently about Gen Zs and a specific paper and book on the impact they’re going to have on the workforce. And interestingly, in the research around them as a generation, there’s quite a lot about them being very literal in terms of accepting something as just as what it is. And you’re asked to do something, you do that task. There’s no sort of broader thinking around it. And that’s partly linked to technology and how quickly they’re accessing things.
But you’re right, from a reputation perspective, if you’re just going to believe everything you see as the truth, then that’s going to make it really difficult for people to unpick someone that might be doing a deliberate sort of campaign against you and an agenda to sort of take you down. To unpick that is going to be even harder.
It is, absolutely. It is going to be much harder. I think we’ve got to guard against it. But quite how? I’m not sure. I mean, there are all sorts of people springing up like Full Fact, which is a wonderful organisation where, you know, they try and correct mistakes, in quotes, which parliamentarians make and they pull Boris Johnson up on several things.
But unfortunately, some of these were repeated time and time again, you know, unemployment figures, numbers of houses being built. So, it’s quite difficult to manage that. It really is.
Yeah, it’s verifying that information, isn’t it? It is. I think the one thing that is very important is to have trust from your stakeholders. And if you have that trust, then the belief in your organisation is going to be stronger for sure.
From a reputation and the chaos perspective, is there anything, any other example that you’ve got where people need to be mindful of around sort of chaos?
We’ve talked about mergers and acquisitions. We’ve talked about AI and social values. Is there anything else that, from a reputation perspective, people need to be mindful of around sort of chaos?
Absolutely. And some of those things stem from internal faults and internal proceedings, which is simply not good or bad PR campaigns. So, one example, which I was thinking of is the Bell Pottinger scandal, where it was a London team, actually, who devised this campaign for South Africa, which was to manipulate the South Africa electorate. And they incited racial hatred. It was simple as that. And, you know, Bell Pottinger, after it was found out that they were doing this, and the complaint was brought against them, it actually collapsed.
And hundreds of jobs went with it. And hundreds of jobs went with it. I mean, it had absolutely fatal results. And, you know, another one, which is much more recent, of course, is the CBI, where two women have alleged that they were raped. And there have been several allegations of sexual harassment. And, you know, the CBI is really suffering at the moment. Companies, some companies have completely left it. And others are just not collaborating at all at the moment. And the CBI has put a halt on all proceedings for the next weeks. So, I can see that could possibly be fatal again, and cause the dissolution of the CBI. And if not, the reputation building program which would be needed will be phenomenal.
It’s like you said about trust. It is that you can, you know, you can take a while to build it, but you can lose it in an instance, really.
What’s your advice to help people be less chaotic in terms of their reputation?
And how do you, you know, we’ve talked a little bit about that. But what are the tips that you’ve got for people that might be thinking, “Oh, God, this is terrifying. I need to do something to make sure this doesn’t happen.”
Well, you know, I go back to the fact that in order to have a good reputation, first of all, you don’t own your own reputation. It’s actually in the perception of other people.
So, you need to make sure that perception is accurate. But fundamentally, it’s about running a really good organisation. Because that is where the reputation emanates. So, it has to be run well in every single aspect of it. I think, you know, organisations have to understand their purpose, know their values and how they fit into society. They have to have very good risk management and seamless internal coordination as well. So, that you don’t get, you know, one department fighting another. And offer excellent products and services to all the stakeholders. That’s also another fundamental. That sounds really easy.
Well, it is. But the reputation management piece comes in about communicating these attributes to everybody, to all the stakeholders anyway, in order to build trust and safeguard the company’s reputation. And of course, you communicate in lots of different ways. And it’s important to know which the best ways are. So, you know, you may be writing an annual report. Or, you know, you may be tackling social media.
I thought Pringles had a wonderful example. They asked people, what are the first five words? Tell a sad story in five words. That was what it was. And they set it off by saying, “There are no more Pringles.”
And this led to absolute, you know, flurry of likes and responses. So, you know, sometimes can be really, really simple, but you do need to communicate in the best possible way. So, that’s really important.
Also, I think it’s really complicated now running a company. So, with the geopolitical situation and lots of unrest fomenting in all the continents, actually, we’re really faced with very new challenges. So, it’s not really an option now to stay silent and be corporately neutral, which you were able to do before. I don’t think you can do that now. Because if you don’t say anything, people assume that you don’t care.
Yeah, it’s such a fine balance though, isn’t it?
Absolutely, absolutely. But I mean, we all did it when Ukraine was attacked by the Russians. And certainly the major associations and institutes pulled, told their companies to pull out, and lots of companies, most companies pulled out of Russia. But it is a very, very complex thing. But I do think we have to step up to that challenge without a doubt.
Another tip, I think, for me is don’t think that a sticking plaster approach is enough. So many people say, “Oh, I’ve got a problem, you know, quick, give me a quick fix.” It’s just not about that.
If you’re managing a reputation, you have to, it’s back to the way that you act, back to the way the company is perceived by everybody.
And, you know, in the end, PR people are not there to spin, as we’re often accused of. At our best, I think we’re there to advise the management to point out the risks in certain actions, and also to nudge them towards the best possible solutions. That’s also really important. And that’s where reputation management will come in.
Thank you for listening!
Thank you so much for joining me today. I could talk to you about this. And we often do spend hours talking about this. So, thank you so much for coming. If people want to get in touch with you to find out a bit more about the work you do to help organisations in this area, what’s the best way for them to do that?
It’s either my LinkedIn profile, Eva McLean, or my email address. Perfect. So we can pop the link to both of those in the show notes. Absolutely. And thank you very much for coming.
In the next episode, I’m going to be talking about coaching and leadership with Jo Twizzleton, which feels like a nice follow on from this one where we’re talking about reputation and integrity.
So thank you for listening. I’d love to continue this conversation. So please do join our community and mailing list from the link in the show notes.
