There might be several items addressed in this episode with change communication consultant and leadership coach, Jo Twiselton, that will make you think, “huh, that’s me!” Jo and Jenni talk about why every leader needs a coach to help guide them through this ever-changing world.
Leaders are human too and you need to look after yourself first and foremost. Jo reveals some great tips that you can put into practice.
As an executive coach, Jo is often working with the team to facilitate conversations and advise on change programmes. Jo has worked with several of our clients helping them through change and in her latest blog for us she shared some of the reasons why and how coaching can help leaders as they navigate through organisational change. Jo’s Blog – Redefining Communication
Things that will help you go from chaos to calm:
Comms Reboot – the communication unconference by Redefining Communications
Emotional Intelligence: Why it Can Matter More Than IQ book by Daniel Goleman
Leadership Coaching: From Personal Insight to Organisational Performance book by Graham Lee
You can continue the conversation with Jenni on Twitter and LinkedIn
Get in touch with Jo here on LinkedIn or via their website www.twistconsultants.co.uk.
Transcript for this podcast
Welcome to this episode of Redefining Comms with me, Jenni Field. Today, I’m going to be joined by Jo Twizzleton, who is a change communication consultant and leadership coach. In fact, Jo is a qualified executive and well-being coach, and she works a lot with leaders, managers, and teams who want to be their best during times of upheaval. Jo and I have worked together for a number of years, I think first meeting through the Chartered Institute of Public Relations. And we’ve worked together with clients, helping them with facilitation of their workshops and some coaching and some development. And Jo was also part of the team at our Comms Reboot event that we did in 2023.
So, hello, Jo.
Hello, Jenni, and thank you for the invitation.
Well, thank you so much for coming. And today we’re going to talk a lot about coaching and leadership, something that comes up a lot in the work that we’re doing where we take people through the field model. When we get to that fixed stage, we quite often find that coaching and leadership coaching specifically is something that people are looking at more and more now. They might not know they’re looking at it, but by the time we get to the end of the field model, it’s become quite clear that we need to look at that.
But before we get into the chaos of not investing in leadership coaching, let’s start with a definition of what coaching is, because I think we often blur coaching and mentoring together.
What is the definition of coaching?
So I’ve got one. I’m a member of the Association for Coaching. So I’m literally going to take that one. Perfect. So if we start with personal coaching, it’s collaborative, solution focused, results oriented, and a systematic process. So the coach facilitates the enhancement of work performance, life experience, self-directed learning, and personal growth of the coachee.
So for executive coaching, which we’re talking about today, it’s the same as personal coaching, but it’s specifically focused at that senior management level where there’s an expectation for the coach to feel as comfortable exploring business-related topics as they are personal development topics.
So, there’s a slight difference there in terms of capability, really, of the coach.
And I mean, not to put you on the spot, but that difference in mentoring for you, maybe not just a definition, but how does it differ either from your perspective as the person doing the coaching or from the recipient’s perspective?
So the two for me are very distinct. So if I’m in a coaching conversation, it’s very different to a mentoring conversation. So for mentoring, the easiest way to explain it is that I am sharing my skills and knowledge, or someone’s doing that for me. In coaching, it’s a different conversation where we’re trying to help the person who’s the coachee unearth what it is for them.
So much more questioning. Curious questions, you’re helping them delve, and lots of listening. Yes. Lots of listening, yes. Perfect. Spot on. Good. So that’s good. So we’ve got a good grounding of that.
Where does the chaos come into this?
Now, let’s talk about all the chaos that happens. And I suppose there’s a couple of ways we could look at this: is whether it’s the chaos of not investing in coaching for leaders, or, in fact, let’s start there, because I think that’s the bit I see the most, is that it’s just not invested in, and it’s leading to quite a lot of symptoms that are causing chaos. But I’d love to know what your perspective is around leadership coaching and chaos, and what you’re seeing.
So, the interesting thing that I see at the moment is the amount of, for want of a better word, change and uncertainty, actually, that we’re all facing at the moment. And for leaders, that’s no different, because we’re all human beings, we’ve just got a different job title.
Yeah. So, to be a leader that can roll with the punches of all that change, we’re looking at that entire backdrop for them as much as we are for the people in the organisation.
So, quite often, I mean, this morning was a great example. I was listening to the CEO of IBM on the radio, and we’re recording this podcast, by the way, on Star Wars Day, which is May the 4th.
So, IBM’s CEO said that the company plans to pause hiring on back office functions, where there’s about 26,000 employees, and he could see a 30%, that’s about 7,800 positions going because of AI. So, that’s a big shift. And that’s over a five-year period. That’s not a lot of time for a leader to then get into that rhythm of understanding that they’ve got to make a shift.
Another bunch of chaos. So, that’s the context, really, that we’re working around. And I think it’s really difficult for leaders sometimes to have a space where they can step back. They’re supposed to have all the answers. If you’re an employee, you expect them to know what we’re supposed to be doing. But sometimes they’re in the same situation that the rest of us are.
And it makes me quite sad sometimes when I think about it, because I remember during the pandemic feeling quite protective of leaders. And all of this sort of, you know, there was so much in the media and people attacking leaders for not being empathetic. And then it was, you need to be this, you need to be this, you need to be this. And I thought, these people are going through this as well. But we seem to be forgetting that and just putting them on this big pedestal and expecting amazing stuff from fellow human beings that are going through who knows what in terms of the impact of this pandemic. And where is that support?
Because, you know, be interested in terms of what’s the chaos that you do see where there isn’t that support.
So, maybe what are the symptoms?
Or what are the things that would happen that might help people listening suddenly go, “Oh, that’s happening for us. I hadn’t realised coaching would be the right solution.” So, things like this will be dear to both our hearts, poor or inconsistent communication. Yes. So, at all levels and in all sorts of situations, and especially when we get all of this change kind of happening all at the same time. So, what transpires is that people around the organisation aren’t clear what’s happening?
They don’t know what things mean for them. They don’t know where they sit. That trickles down to other managers and leaders. So, everybody’s kind of wandering around like startle rabbits quite a lot of the time. That can lead to a lot of things you’ve talked about in your podcast before about transparency, either deliberate or not. Just like a lack of time or awareness or how do I do this to share information.
A gradual erosion, and you talk about this a lot, or a complete lack of trust. Once that’s gone, that’s really difficult to get back if nigh and impossible. And then you see scepticism and actually, if they’re not doing it, I won’t do it. That kind of thing. So, the communication piece is a huge chunk, which means limited psychological safety as well. So, people just don’t feel confident speaking up.
They don’t offer ideas, never mind any good ones. Because they just don’t feel safe to do it. That safe environment just doesn’t exist. Or it can be very, very difficult to get. Tough conversations can be hard. They either don’t happen or they end up in conflict. Lack of consistency, either in the exec’s delivery, across the team or the organisation. So, again, there’s that kind of disjointedness. Lack of clarity, lack of focus. Tricky for people to see. I call it pinball leading. So, they’re just bouncing all over the place. This is really interesting. An unwillingness to change, even if they’re in charge of delivering change.
Oh, I can’t make that make sense. But I can feel that as well.
So that is a phrase that we both use, which is the say-do gap that we see a lot in IC. But everybody can see it. It’s like, well, we’re all coming into the office for three days a week. But I’ll be at home. And I’ll come in for a couple. So yeah, they’re great examples. And then when coaching and development isn’t priority for a leader or the HR team to get that support for a leader, then it doesn’t become a priority for the rest of the organisation. And then you lose the opportunity for a coaching culture where there’s a lot of evidence that can really benefit organisations in terms of higher performance.
And it’s, you know, I said at the start of this conversation that it’s something we’ve seen more of in recent years, really since the pandemic. Have you seen that, maybe that focus on it or that awareness of it as a solution to some of the chaos? Have you seen that increase?
Yes. It’s getting there. It’s definitely getting there. I’ve seen, I’ve had conversations with more, what I’d say, coaching enlightened leaders who know or who have heard what it is or it’s worked for them in the past and they’ve come back to it.
But what I’ve also seen a lot of is a lot of conversation about leadership development programmes. And I don’t know if you’ve seen that. Yeah, I think there has been a lot more.
And I’ve, you know, I’ve done my own development where I did the certificate with, the Institute of Directors to be an accredited company director. And that covers four different modules, which includes finance, strategy, the role of the board, but it also includes leadership. And it talks about emotional intelligence and all of those things. And I did the sort of residential course of that way. It’s quite intensive over five days and it was really intense.
But you get to meet and work with really different people, which was great. There were sort of 15 of us going through this course and people from all different organisations, from public sector and different countries. It was incredible. And everyone there was invested in their development. And that leadership bit definitely included aspects of that sort of coaching piece, that understanding the relationship side of being a leader, rather than just the finances, the role of the board and the strategy. It’s that relationships bit that I think is often the bit that’s left behind, which is where coaching really comes into its own.
And you’ve hit that golden spot of talking about emotional intelligence. So, I don’t know if you’ve covered that in the podcast previously. So, it really got publicised by Daniel Goleman in his book in 1995 called Emotional Intelligence. Uncannily. But those are all what were called their sort of soft skills that I still hear people talk about now. But it is all around that relationship piece and how you can develop some of those skills, essentially being aware that emotions can drive behaviour, that can have an impact on us and importantly, people around us as well. And just understanding that, recognising it’s happening, understand it’s happening, and then what do I do with it when it happens?
So, that context and leaders don’t. Who do they talk to if they want to try stuff out, understand where they are, what their strengths are, what impact they’re having on the organisation, whether that’s positive or could do better, dare I say it? But that coaching space gives them the opportunity to explore it and really bounce some ideas around. I’ve worked with leaders on how they work with their resilience in that space, how they kind of look after their team, how they get their life balance right. You know, all those sorts of things that we all talk about, but we kind of expect them to take care of themselves.
Yeah, definitely. And not to throw a curveball at you, but we’ve sort of talked about how, you know, how coaching can be a benefit, how it can help.
Is there anything coaching is not the solution to?
Because I often find all routes lead to coaching, which isn’t always the case. So there must be things for leaders where actually coaching isn’t quite the right solution for that and you need to go and do other kinds of development or other kinds of learning. Is there anything that stands out for you that would be, no, no, no, don’t do coaching for this?
So, when we, when I did my coaching training, there’s quite a lot of work around. We’ve already talked about the difference between coaching, mentoring, mentoring and training is another one, but also coaching and therapy. So, I’m not a trained therapist. So, it’s the coaching piece about looking forward and being solution focused in the definition I talked about at the beginning is really where we kind of hang out really. But I don’t know, I’m kind of thinking that most things you could really help to improve.
I hadn’t thought about the therapy piece actually. And, and, and I remember doing some, some coaching work with a client where we, where I do a bit of one-to-one work with, with, with people. And I, and I remember during a conversation saying to them, you need to go and talk to a therapist. Like this is a line I can’t cross because we’re going into territory that I’m not qualified to, to get involved in. and, and, and they did and, and we continued to work together, but it was a definite acknowledgement on both sides that this is something different to here. And I think you probably feel that when you’re having those conversations and you know, but I think it’s a really important distinction to make. Because as I’ve said, all routes lead to coaching. There is quite a distinct line actually, Jenni, where that doesn’t actually happen.
But the signposting to something else is key and, and that applies to anybody. Yeah. That, you know, we can be mental health first aid. Yes. Yeah. I think we both are, aren’t we?
We both are, yeah. But again, we know what’s within our gift really. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Is there anything else around coaching, around that chaos to calm, anything that you want to mention today that’s important for people?
I think without, I just, it’s a reiteration really, without that space to explore things, also try stuff out. If you’ve got a really difficult thing to do, and I’m reading this book at the moment, which is in front of me as we’re doing this podcast, by a guy called Graham Lee, called Leadership Coaching. In here, he talks about tensions between personal and organisational needs.
So, for example, and I’m looking straight at the book here. So, a personal need might be to establish a better work-life balance. And an organisational need or drive could be to find and keep highly committed people. So, you suddenly start to see a values gap. Yeah. So, where do you have that conversation? And what do you do with that? So, yeah.
And I was reading something along this sort of, I’ll try and dig it out, and we’ll pop a link to that book in the show notes. And I’ll try and dig out this article that’s somewhere in my brain about this gap. I think it was a credibility book I was reading for some research. And it was this: you can have value, you can have your set of values, even as you individually, but they can sometimes, you know, work against each other. So if all of your, you know, you might be asked to work late, which is going to impact your family, but you’ve got values that are both family and work committed. So, how do you choose which value trumps which other one? And then how do I make that decision?
And I think it is, for me, when I, you know, listening to you talking about that and thinking about some of these, is it’s the helping you make decisions. It’s, you know, when I work with my coach, it’s when I’m stuck. I don’t know how to move forwards in this way. And he’s my business coach and I’ve got time, you know, dedicated with him to work through the things where I’m stuck because I need someone to just talk it through with. And he’s not always going to, you know, he’s a mentor and coach, so he will do some, “this is the answer, just go and do this.”
But it’s helping me make decisions. And I think that’s what it is. It’s helping me make the decisions that I’m comfortable with in myself.
Get unstuck, basically. Because you can, we can all go around our head. I can spend hours in there, just go around, around, around, around, around. Yeah, and the other thing to bear in mind as well is that leaders are role models. Whether they think they might be or not, people look to them for what they do. So if they see them having coaching, and that’s another thing, some leaders just don’t talk about the fact that they have a coach.
Yeah, some people are really private about it, aren’t they? And that’s kind of vulnerability, courage together, you know, a little bit. Whereas I like to talk about the fact that I have one because it’s important for me that people know that I have support as much as I’m advising other people. It’s sort of a bit of a chain element, which I think is really important.
So, I have supervision as a coach. Yeah. So, I have a conversation about how I show up for my clients and then any sticky things that I’ll kind of, I need a sounding board. So, it goes up the tree, really.
Yeah, and I like that sort of coming unstuck. I think that’s a nice, from a chaos to calm, you know, stuck to unstuck. It feels nice to me that we sort of wrapped up the episode with that. It’s about getting unstuck. So, I think that’s great. Yeah.
Thank you for listening!
Thank you so much for coming along today. I’ll pop a link in the show notes for the best way to get in touch with you. So, what is that?
That is on LinkedIn. That is on LinkedIn. Marvellous. I’ll pop a link into your profile on that. So, if people want to get in touch, they can. And obviously, we’ve got you on the website as part of our collective team. So, there’s some details there as well.
So, in the next episode, I’m going to be talking about difficult conversations with Louisa Clark, who has recently joined our collective team. Interestingly, how to have difficult conversations is something we talk to clients about a lot when it comes to chaos. And I’m really pleased it’s going to follow this episode because I feel like it’s a nice link to some of the leadership challenges that are in organisations as well.
So, thank you for listening. I’d love to continue this conversation. So, please do join our community and mailing list from the link in the show notes.
