In this penultimate episode of season four, Jenni is joined by Louisa Clarke who is a specialist on how to manage difficult conversations. Are you a confrontation avoider? Louisa talks about moving away from the concept that having a difficult conversation involves being aggressive and bolshy. Louisa and Jenni discuss tips and tricks to help difficult conversations end up in a nicer place that cuts through the power dynamic. They talk about why having difficult conversations, setting boundaries, and setting expectations is our path to freedom, enabling things to run more smoothly. And how to do it in a way that’s warm and packed with values and integrity.
Having difficult conversations at work is something many leaders and managers struggle with. It’s such a big topic for some of our clients so chatting to Louisa about the chaos it can bring and how we can help people bring calm was a useful discussion for those struggling with it. You’ll find some of Louisa’s latest thinking in her latest blog where she shares tips for navigating some of those tricky issues at work. Louisa’s blog – Redefining Communication
Things that will help you go from chaos to calm:
Calm Edged Rebels podcast, Season 2, episode 3 – How to say no: creating balance and boundaries
How to have a difficult conversation blog by Jenni Field
Get in touch with Louisa through their website here www.confidentlythere.com or via LinkedIn
You can continue the conversation with Jenni on Twitter and LinkedIn
Transcript for this podcast
Welcome to this episode of Redefining Comms with me, Jenni Field. Today, I’m going to be joined by Louisa Clark, who is a specialist in difficult conversations. Now, Louisa joined our collective team earlier on this year to help us work with clients where they’re struggling to have uncomfortable conversations. And she really specialises in promoting the effectiveness and power of ethical communication strategies as a cultural choice. And she is actually qualified as a verbal communication specialist.
And I just said to Louisa before we came on air, what does that actually mean? And go on, what does it actually mean?
Well, you know, I often say to people, I’m a lot of things that no one’s ever heard of before ever. So I do actually hold a very niche master’s course in voice and verbal communication. Yeah, that’s where it all kind of started out, really. And initially, I worked with people like actors, broadcasters, public speakers, presenters, but just became fascinated about the psychology of communication and difficult situations, higher stakes scenarios in particular. I did some further training around that. And now here we are.
Here we are. And I’m delighted you’re joining me today, because I really feel this is something that comes up again and again in conversations I’m having with clients, you’re having with your clients through Confidently There. And I think it’s something that for organisations can so quickly lead to chaos and so quickly be resolved.
Yes. If people just understand a bit more about communication. And that’s really, I think, where we came together was our joint love and passion for if people just understood a bit more about communication, the world would be a much better place. Such a better place. So, I’m really pleased you’re here today. So, thank you for joining me. And I’m going to kick us off by asking you a bit about the chaos that comes in organisations around difficult conversations and whether that’s not knowing how to have them, whether that’s how they manifest, whatever it is.
What are difficult conversations and how does that impact organisations?
So, I mean, I think that really was the birth of my business was discovering, I feel a bit like there isn’t anything that isn’t impacted by an ability to lean in and talk about some of the difficult stuff.
So, at the minor end of the scale, that looks like people struggling to have performance management conversations in a timely way, or in a way where people leave feeling inspired, empowered, better connected rather than disconnected, frustrated, all the way up to then issues around staff retention, around staff morale. The thing that really hooks me in about it is the well-being angle. It’s because actually to understand, as a former massive confrontation avoider.
Are you like a recovering people pleaser that people say?
Like absolutely chronic, but about five years into recovery now. That was also a massive part of why I’ve ended up on the path that I have is because I’m a firm advocate for the fact that actually leaning in, having those difficult conversations, well, it’s two things really. One, that being able to set those boundaries and speak about expectation is absolutely our path to freedom and to things running more smoothly, to people feeling happier, to people feeling validated, seen and heard, to people being in the roles that they should be in and thriving within them. That’s one aspect.
But the other is that I really feel strongly that difficult conversations have looked a particular way for a very long time. And this is what is holding so many people back from being better at them. And that’s the either you’ve got to be bulshy, assertive, aggressive. You’ve got to be a bit kind of it’s my way or the highway, pushy, forceful, and leave people coming away not feeling good. It might be effective.
It might get the thing you want, but ultimately it doesn’t end up being sustainable at all. Or we see people kind of pussyfooting around the edge of them and never quite getting to the nub of the issue and therefore compromising on too many things and sitting back on them.
And I think for me that’s because people seem to think that difficult conversations, it’s a kind of binary choice between either being that bulshy kind of, you know, I’ve got a real thing about this boss bitch kind of image, an idea that has been perpetuated for so long about powerful women that either you’ve got to go that route or you’ve got to prioritise being liked.
And I really am on a bit of a mission to bust that myth and to show that there is absolutely a sweet spot in between these two things. It is totally possible to lean in and have difficult conversations that is in a way where what you’re saying is non-negotiable. It’s clear.
You’re setting those clear boundaries, but you can do it in a way that is warm, that is even a bit shy, that is human, that is packed with integrity, that is led with values and that better connect to the relationship rather than tarnishing it or damaging it at all. That’s what drives me. And in organisations where people might struggle to have them, when people pick up the phone and say, “this is going on,” you know, and I talk a lot about the symptoms of chaos and then diagnosing the root cause.
And we’ve had a conversation where I’ve said, I think, you know, the root cause is often this inability to have difficult conversations.
What are the symptoms that people come to you with where you kind of know that this is what’s holding you back?
So, again, it really varies. It can often be that they’ve been through a period of real turbulence. So, it’s your definition of chaos. Absolutely. And that might look like lots of different things. It might be actually something very public has gone wrong and they’ve had a huge amount of backlash. And it’s the fact that the organisation, the people who work there will have a strength of feeling about what’s gone on. But then there’s this big PR move that’s also happening. And so very often, it’s about not quite knowing how to give voice to those internally in a way that is still forward moving and productive.
So, yeah, kind of turbulence or public backlash or a period of real challenge that an organisation has gone through will often be the way, or actually just kind of build up of the unsaid.
So, that will come through in things like people reporting maybe that they’ve kind of witnessed some behaviours that are possibly a little bit kind of, they maybe fall into harassment or bullying or power dynamics playing out in a way. So, actually, the other one that I see a lot is if there’s a real lack of speak up culture. If people don’t, you know, I have heads of HR, heads of L&D, heads of people that I mainly end up in contact with and doing work with. And very often, it’s because they’re saying we’ve got people leaving or we’ve got people going off with stress, and we don’t totally know why because people aren’t coming to us with things.
So lack of trust or lack of feeling that they’re going to be heard or validated, fear of raising their head above the parapet a bit. I could kind of boil it all down to power dynamics playing out in a way that is unhelpful and unhealthy.
I’ve got so many questions. I could sit here for hours. You could talk for ages, Jenni. I’m like, “Oh God, I’ve only got like 10 minutes left.” But I mean, all of those things linked to communication, which is obviously so much of the specialism that we look at.
Is it always leaders that you’re talking to? Or is it everybody?
Because in other episodes in this season, I’ve talked a bit about managers. We’ve talked about them as part of the employee experience. For me, difficult conversations are everywhere. But I’m interested as you’re talking, my bias in my head or my instinct is I’m thinking leaders the whole time you’re talking. But I’m wondering if it is just that or if it’s all the way through the organisation.
It’s absolutely all the way through the organisation. And I see what I do, and I have a small and brilliant team around me. And between us, what we go in and do with organisations tends to fall into one of two camps.
One is we’ll maybe go in, it tends to be project work, but we might go in as a kind of responsive project, because they’ve been through a period of challenge, because, you know, they’ve gone through a really turbulent time. And it might be that we therefore go in and essentially facilitate. We set up and open up channels of communication amongst the entire workforce. We’re working with a large organisation at the moment, 350 or so employees, who’ve had a real period of challenge of really turbulent time.
And we’re actually running a project that touches every stage, every level of that organisation. Because a huge amount, again, of what I believe in, in terms
Of this ability to lean in and have these difficult conversations, I’ve mentioned it so many times already, but it’s the cutting through the power dynamics thing. So it’s about cultivating, how do you go in and cultivate those horizontal, truly horizontal channels of communication, despite a vertical structure?
And do you do any work on the receiving end of a difficult conversation?
Because again, as you’re talking, I’m thinking there’s, there’s lots of, there’s lots of different elements around sort of the chaos theme for me in terms of you being the solution to that chaos. But also, there’s kind of different sides to what’s going on in an organisation. And if I’m, if I’m a manager, and you’re helping me have difficult conversations with my team, yeah, I think some people are uncomfortable receiving difficult conversations. So, do you look at both sides?
Yes, 100%. The listening angle and the ability to receive is completely core to it. Because actually, very often, the reason someone doesn’t speak up or doesn’t approach a difficult conversation is because of an internal experience that has gone on within them, right?
They are triggered to a greater or lesser degree by something, or the prospect of saying something that feels uncomfortable or feels difficult, a boundary that is going to inconvenience the other party, for example.
Or saying, it’s like, you know, it’s the classic going in and asking for a raise or asking for a salary increase or whatever it might be. Just the thought of what is going to go on for you within your body, the second you phrase those words, is enough to put a lot of people off from actually saying them.
So, yes, there’s a huge amount where we talk about nervous system regulation, we talk about the mindset stuff around, and actually it all kind of roots around another thing I’m really big on, which is emotional responsibility, essentially.
What are we responsible for? And what aren’t we responsible for?
I love that you’ve mentioned that because we’ve had an episode where we’ve talked to John Humphrys, who does mental resilience workshops with us. And he talks about, you know, where is your responsibility around resilience? Is it the individuals and the organisations and you being individually responsible for your response and your bounce back ability as resilience as well?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And until we kind of, it’s something I do a lot of work with both groups and individuals on. And again, that’s with leaders or with people the whole way through the organisation. It’s about this truth: we are absolutely always responsible for our own emotional regulation and we are never responsible for somebody else’s.
That doesn’t mean to say we don’t have empathy and we don’t want to connect and understand their experience, but we absolutely shouldn’t be carrying what they are feeling. And therefore we shouldn’t be
Avoiding setting a boundary or avoiding having a difficult conversation because we are concerned about the way that they are going to respond. Because truthfully, actually, what we’re worried about is the experience that will trigger in our body. Yes. Oh, interesting.
So, interesting. So, what’s your advice to people then who are maybe looking to go, you know, from the chaos to calm around difficult conversations, challenging the power dynamic?
Are there any sort of tips that you’ve got for people that would help them?
How are meetings run?
Look at the way in which meetings are being run, the way in which channels of communication are being made available to organisations, to teams within organisations and how truly equitable or not they are. And you want to be aiming for everything to be pointing towards as equal opportunity to have a voice as you possibly can. So, one of the first frameworks that I’ll often go in and work with is something from a world, a kind of framework, if you like, called restorative practice. Yeah. And it’s where you go in and have what is called within restorative practice a circle style conversation.
But it’s where you literally, I mean, you are very specific and very boundaried about the subject that you’re going into address. It’s a really powerful tool to use with a team if you’ve got a particular issue on the table, but where you literally sit in a circle, in a space. So, nobody’s behind desks, sitting either closer or further away.
Nobody’s in that back corner, actually half on their emails on their phone. Like you sit in that circle on chairs with no tables in between you all. And you decide on the topic that you’re going to speak about. You put into place some agreed kind of ground rules or principles for that meeting, which is things like always keeping the language respectful, of course, but also speaking from an eye perspective as much as possible, really avoiding falling into assumptions and judgements and all kind of committing to hold each other accountable to do that.
And then you literally give every person there the same amount of time to speak. So everybody has that, whatever it is, three minutes, let’s say. And I much prefer if you can within that setting to avoid going around the circle. I’m a massive believer that if you’re going around the circle, you never actually listen to the person who speaks before you. Yes, because you’re thinking, “Oh God, I feel like this.” Even when I’ve been at like hen do’s and people go around in a circle for stuff and I’m going, “I’ve got to be next. I’ve got to come up with a story and I don’t know my story.” And I couldn’t tell you the story that went before me because I’m too preoccupied with myself.
Exactly that. So this is where ideally, actually, somebody facilitates this conversation. So you have someone there whose pure responsibility is to hold the space and who isn’t there to provide the content. So we go in and do this for organisations around tricky subjects. And sometimes it can be really helpful just to have an external person there anyway.
But that could be somebody just from a different team or different department. So they hold the space and actually just invite individuals in a random order to speak for that amount of time. And then from there, themes will emerge. Somebody scribes, takes all of those down. And then we’ve got something tangible to go away. A
Speak openly and honestly about your feelings
And the other crucial thing is then, having spoken truthfully, normally the kind of best questions to ask in that situation is about the impact of things, how people have been feeling, how people have experienced something or what their main frustration or challenge or hold up is here.
And when you invite people into that space, it’s kind of inviting them to speak with accountability and responsibility from their own perspective. That alone, culturally, starts to do something very, very positive if we’re doing that time and time again. But then you move it through into a forward-looking exercise that’s about, okay, well, having shared, honestly, where people are at, what their experiences have been, what their challenge has been, what the impact has been, okay, well, what do you need from here?
And again, you invite people to speak up from their first-person perspective with equal voice. And it’s, of course, about that, yeah, the quality of listening within that as well.
Listening to understand
And listening to genuinely understand other people’s perspective rather than just to judge and respond. Yeah. I think that listening to understand is something we always come back to again and again, because that active listening skills is so important.
And it was interesting as you were talking about that circle piece, it was taking me back to the work I’ve done as an accredited facilitator. And I was just reflecting on sessions I’ve run with teams where I’ve been helping them. And I was looking after a sort of client services team, and I got everyone to sit in a circle. And I hadn’t heard of restorative practice till we’d started speaking. But it’s that sort of calmness, that fairness, that really changing that energy dynamic in a space, which I think is really powerful.
Being accountable
And the other thing that I love about that structure is this thing of accountability. You know, on projects that I’ve worked on with other organisations, when they have been through periods of challenge, and there is a real strength of feeling, essentially, teams have all, they’re all miserable, because culturally things have really gone to pot.
What a circle or what starting to put some of these frameworks into place allows for, it’s to say, well, look, if you’ve got gripes, if you have a strength of feeling, we are opening up a channel to really hear that and to see it and to understand it. And you won’t be shut down, you won’t be judged. It will be a non-shaming environment. But if you have got gripes, bring them. Yes. It’s your responsibility to step in and to share that.
And I love that as a tip because it doesn’t really, it doesn’t really cost anything. You know, it’s actually just spending a bit of time having an open and honest discussion. We’ve probably got time for one more tip if you’ve got another one, just in case you have for people.
Contracting
So, what I really mean by contracting is about really articulating super, super clearly what your boundaries are around a situation and what your expectations are?
I haven’t yet come across a situation where things have gone awry or there’s been a problem where just better contracting at the beginning wouldn’t have resolved it.
You know, it’s such a simple thing. And actually, to contract better at the beginning will often remove the need for a difficult conversation further down the line. I am such an advocate of boundaries, like I said earlier, as being like, boundaries are your path to freedom, 100%. And they don’t make you less empathic, they make you more empathic. They really allow you to better connect because you’re taking care of yourself first and foremost. And that’s where, you know, you really start to thrive. So, contracting. Articulate that stuff super clearly, unapologetically, but kindly at the same time.
Thank you for listening!
I love that. And I think I’ll pop some links in the show notes. I’m sure you’ve got some resources on it, but I know we’ve covered boundaries and things in my Calm Edges Rebels podcast. And also, I think we’ve done it in some previous seasons of this as well. So, I’ll make sure we pop some links in.
Thank you so much for joining me today. If people want to find out more about you and your work, where’s the best place for us to direct them? Because we’ll pop a link in the show notes. Amazing. So, yes, you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m Louisa Clark, Confidently There, or on my website, which is www.confidentlythere.com.
Perfect. Thank you so much for coming. I could talk to you for hours, but I’ll stop there. Thank you.
So, in the next episode, I’m going to be talking about international culture with Sarah Black. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation because in the work that we do with organisations around the world, there’s always discussions around international culture and how you build a culture in an organisation alongside that.
So, thank you for listening. I’d love to continue this conversation. So, please do join our community and mailing list from the link in the show notes.
